disclaimer: may contain unintentionally confusing, inaccurate, comical transcription errors amongst others)
Laide: Hey there,depending on when you're listening to this episode, the dates and timelinesmentioned may no longer apply. If you're enjoying the episodes thus far on the OnchainMedley podcast, there are a few ways you can support. You can leave a review onapple podcast. You can subscribe to the show, wherever you listen to podcasts,where you can share with your friends, families, and communities.
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Mashiat: In the pastfive years, like the influx of traditional finance has changed so many things.Like if you're staking in defy, you can't see proper returns unless you stake,like tens of thousands of dollars.
NFT is, are just insanely expensive. Joining DAOs. I, I loved DAOs,you know, I have nothing against like friends with benefits, but come on, likeputting in like $5,000 just to join your DAO. Like not everyone has 5k, justlying around, you know,
Laide: that was what MashiatMutmainnah. But she had is a product partner and NFT lead contributor at Celo. Celois an open platform that makes financial tools accessible to anyone with amobile phone cell. It focuses on mobile first and it's the serum compatible.Blockchain is optimized for peer to peer payments using only a mobile phonenumber machine.
Mashiat is also a leader, an active contributor for voice club,a community that aims to be a no bros zone for the cryptocurrency. By makingcrypto and website accessible to everyone else. The community hosts dinners,educational sessions, and it's designed for women and non binary people, but iswelcome into all in this episode.
Mashiah AKA Mash and I, we discussed her conviction aboutblockchain web three. What defy is what Celo enables to countries and emerging.As well as our involvement with boys' club, Mashiat has been active in thisspace for about a decade now and has sent, it goes through varioustransformations over the years, I found her insights and valuable, and I'm sureyou've all too, without further ado.
Here's my Mashiat. Hi Mashiat. Welcome to the Onchain Medleypodcast. How are you doing today?
Mashiat: Good. Thankyou lady for inviting me. I'm very excited to just, you know, chat and get toknow you.
Laide: Yeah, samehere. I'm looking forward to all your knowledge. You're going to drop today. Soexcited to talk about. Let's get started with your background and what sparkedyour interest in web three and blockchain.
Mashiat: So unlikemost people, my background has always been in crypto and blockchain and yeah,and it's like really interesting. Cause most folks like, you know, they usually have like a breadth ofexperience, like in web two and other industries, which is so cool. I've beenin crypto for awhile. Uh, I joined, Blockchain club, in 2016, when I was studying in Berkeley as asophomore.
And, at that time I wasstudying applied math and econ. And so I was like looking for a student or tojoin. and there was like the math club,which was doing cool stuff, but it was super theoretical. And then there werelike all the econ clubs that were doing like a lot of awesome consulting stuff,but I really was looking for emerging technology and specifically emergingtechnology that could work in emerging.
And so I heard a lot about Bitcoin then, and, I just kind of looked it up over the winterbreak and started reading and especially got really fascinated by like theapplications of blockchain and how it could help with, removing intermediaries and emerging marketsthat face corruption. And so I was shopped around, my university, kind of student org, like we have this fair.
and you know, I cameacross the blockchain club. Just got started that semester. And so I joinedand, uh, it was honestly such an amazing experience. I got to work with really, really smart peoplewho are doing amazing stuff these days, in the space. And, I really got to work on cool projects thatwere centered around new use cases for blockchain.
so I was able to hitlike a lot of different like niches, like climate health, data identity, andaccess management and, and just learn a lot and absorb, I think also. At thattime, like I keep on saying blockchain because in 2017, this is what theindustry was called now. It's what three. And I think like at that time, whatjust really interested me was just, you know, the idea that we have atechnology that's decentralized and distributed, and it posts, puts ownershipof assets, data, security, finances in the hands of the people.
And I really loved that, uh, about like what three. And, uh, Ireally wanted to kind of keep on pursuing that. And so I took on a lot of likedifferent. To blockchain at Berkeley, which was like the university club. Andthen I also kind of got interested in the diversity aspect of it in 2018 and,uh, started she256 uh, with, uh, some of my amazing co-founders Medico, tare,Alexis GABA of open protocol, and also Sarah Reynolds of uniswap[.
And, they have continuedto, She56 to where it is today, which is absolutely amazing. But you know, atthat time in 2018 diversity non-profits were just starting out. And so, we were able to. Host some amazing events. do Berkeley's first women in blockchainconference have launched mentorship programs, do workshops with more women andnon binary folks in the space.
And I think that's kind of what kept me going. in crypto, uh, these days I'm currentlyworking at. within the Celo foundation,I work, in the innovation team where Iexplore new use cases for crypto. I validate my hypothesis using pilots indifferent communities. And, you know, Itry to like, uh, try to find different forms of product market fit so that Ican bring utility, uh, to.
And if T's defy DAOs, right now I'm also doing a little bit morestrategy work at Celo. So I am driving the NFT initiative there. I work a lot with builders in our ecosystem,help them, uh, get their products launched, help them get funds and grants. Andthen, also kind of figure out new formsof utility for NFTs as well and how Celo can innovate on those.
so yeah, that's a littlebit about me. That's
Laide: awesome. No,fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's so cold to heareverything. Been through and all the different always you're innovating in thisspace and influence in the ecosystem. Before we talk more about what you'redoing at Celo, I'm curious, what was it about blockchain?
You're right. I I've been in this space for like, well, I'veknown of it for the last, like 10 years. I knew it was always blockchain untilI became one of three. Yeah. I was like, okay, it's new. I kind of use theminterchangeably anyway, but you know, people might like to defer. What was itabout this space that gave you some conviction?
That it was something worth pursuing? What problem though? Whatopportunity did you think it unlocked? Like, what was that conviction that. Gotfrom working in
Mashiat: this space.Yeah. I think the conviction that I got is the same conviction as to why I'mnow at Celo. I think I've always been interested in micro finance, right?
Especially micro finance and micro entrepreneurship that comesalong with it. And how micro finance was able to change emerging markets. Likethe Philippines, like Bangladesh, like India into these powerhouses and, andgive. Sustainable livelihood for a lot of people, in under-banked and underserved areas.
But the biggest problem in all of these emerging markets, it'salso corruption, right? Like, when youuse like centralized financial intermediaries, like most of the money, eventhough it's coming from like big foundations, like the gates foundation or, youknow, the Grameen foundation, some of them end up in the hands of.
Corrupted government officials. And so for me, when I was, Iread a case study about how, some folksused blockchain to like send like crypto to like microfinance institutions. Andit just really blew me away. Like the fact that you could, uh, just bypass thiscorrupted intermediary and have checks and balances in place with smartcontracts was really cool.
And, uh, one of my colleagues at Celo on jello, he actually didthat during the COVID-19 pandemic. hewas able to disperse, uh, COVID-19. To Philippine labor workers using the Celonetwork. And so I was just like, okay, this is why I'm here. Like, this is whatI want to do. I want to be able to kind of bring on a whole new level of microwork opportunities, micro entrepreneurship opportunities to crypto.
And then as I joined the org, you know, I got pulled into a lotof different forms of, uh, use cases for crypto as well, like NFTs and stuff.But, that's always been kind of like thething that got me through. Gotcha.
Laide: No, thank youfor sharing that. I was really interested in remittances. That's why I believein this ecosystem.
And then I've seen it change in different directions and I'm,I've questioned about a lot of them, but that's why I'm talking to you. so as someone who's just coming in and waslike, what is defy? What is that? I'd love you to just explain what defy is andthen delve that into what Selah was doing at a deeper level.
Mashiat: Yeah, sure.So, defy is decentralized finance. Sobasically in the traditional world, like what we do is centralized finance. Sowe put our money in the bank and then the bank takes our money and then, youknow, it lends it out and that's how we get interest in our accounts. Right.When we put our money in the bank, withdefy, I w I wouldn't say like, this is the thing with Eva.
I think like defy, everyone thinks like there was no bank, butin reality, like the protocols that you use. Right. Or the pools that you use,they act as bags. But the cool thing about defy is that you do the custody ofyour assets. Is owned by yourself. There's self custody of your assets. Whereasthe bank doesn't really like own your assets.
And I think that's just, what's really powerful, right? Likeyou're able to own your assets. You're able to own the decisions that you make,the investment decisions that you make, and you're able to own the data thatcomes along with it. And so that's how I see defy to be different fromtraditional finance.
I hope that was helpful. Or if you need me to dive a littledeeper,
Laide: that washelpful. And I liked that explanation. I'm wondering, do you think peopleactually want that responsibility of owning their own assets and cause thebanks sort of does everything and you know that if something is wrong, they'llgo rectify it and you don't have to like worry too much about it besides likereporting and check in and making sure things are balanced properly.
But like, do you think the average person is actually ready totake on this responsibility? I know speaking from like a us perspective, butlike just curious how you see that playing out in sort of the developer versusthe. Yeah, I
Mashiat: think that'slike the age old question too. Right? It's like, that is the debate, I think.
And that's the golden question. Like, of course these protocols are highly risky,right? Like they're not FDAC insured. which is like, yeah, they're just not MDICinsured, but at the same time, I think it depends on the person too. Right.Depends on your risk, risk tolerance. Like at the bank at the, at a centralizedbank, like you're put depositing in your funds.
Like you're getting like 0.05% interest. You take the time tolearn about defy, you do your research and you put in amounts of money thatyou're okay with losing. You can earn. APY up to like five to 10% oncentralized exchanges. If you now do decentralized protocols, which are morerisky, you can earn APY, you know, up to like 20%, 50%, et cetera.
Right? Like there's ridiculous APY rates, but again, like dependson the risk tolerance of the person. And it also depends on how smart you arewith your finances. Like, I think that if you're able to put aside money thatyou're actually okay with losing. And you take the time to do your own researchand you take the time to have proper security, uh, security measures in place,like invest in a hard wallet, you know, or like a cold wallet and make surethat your keys are safely stored.
I think that it is possible because at the end of the day, likethe systems, the financial systems that are in place. They only benefit peoplewho have large amounts of capital to begin with. And, and as somebody who'slike a brown woman, I wasn't taughtabout like personal finances growing up at all.
And I'm just learning how to like, navigate that world the, theway, like the average, you know, the average financial user, uh, theinformation that's out there for that. It's not that transparent. And the greatthing about defy is that ma most of the protocols on Sally's ecosystem are opensource. And many of these protocols are transparent because that's what, that'sthe benefit of the blockchain.
And as you stake, and as you put your money into these defyprotocols, you can get like, you know, tokens back and then you can vote onproposals on how that protocol can help you. So I think that that's the powerof defy, right? If, if you are of like, if you do have higher risk tolerance,And you put in the time to intentionally do your research to intentionally setup the right security measures and to intentionally put in funds that you'reokay to play around with.
You can drastically, you know, kind of take benefits of like atransparent decentralized ecosystem and have some ownership, not only of yourown funds, but of how the protocol is benefiting you and how, how much yieldyou're receiving. And I think that's something what that draws people to defy.Of course, uh, there's a lot of like, Things that need to be changed, right?
Like there needs to be more education. There needs to be easierways of onboarding. There needs to be easier forms of UI UX. Like I think UI UXis a huge hurdle, in this space,especially with defy. And I think that's some of the things that we're doing atCelo that we're trying to solve at Celo is that we're trying to bring moreintentional, friendly design and trying to market to folks who don't haveaccess to a lot of funds because we're of the belief that defies should be forever.
You know, you don't needlike 10 K and, three screens to investin defy. You just need like $10 and your phone, and that's kind of what we're,we're looking at. So.
Laide: That'sawesome. Thanks for sharing that. So then thinking through Celo, now youmentioned a little about what you're doing. can you share about where the company's going,how the traction is in this space?
How is it being received by your target audience? Just anything
Mashiat: you canshare there. Yeah, sure. so I can give alittle background on Celo. So fellow is a layer one. We are a blockchainnetwork, similar to a theory. We're actually a fork, but we, it started off asa fork of Ethereum and, uh, we're on a mission to bring prosperity for all.
And one of the ways in which we do that is to a mobile first.Tech stack. So Celo, our network is optimized for mobile phones. and basically this ensures that we have reallylightweight transactions and the transactions are settled instantaneously andthe gas fees are like a hundredth of a penny.
The other cool thing about Celo is that because we'resynchronized and we're optimized for mobile phones, this means that you canbasically send crypto payments, just using someone else's phone number and thatphone number. I still, you know, it's still like pseudo anonymous because wehave like a unique algorithm that, you know, hashes the phone number and thenstores that in the public keys.
so we're able to provideboth security and ease of use, in thatway. And the third thing that makes Celo, I think it's the icing on the cake isour support for native stable points. sostable points are really important because of course, like, as you mentioned,like people can be very, scared to tryout defy because.
It's highly volatile. It is hard to just get started. Itrequires a lot of capital, but the thing with stable coin is that stable coinsare a way to hedge against the volatility of crypto. And this is especiallyimportant for the markets that we serve. We serve over 80 different countriesacross Latin America, south America, Africa, Southeast Asia, and of course,north America and Europe.
And for many of these emerging markets, like. It's easy totransfer a stable coin and the stable point also retains value. and that's super valuable for our users inthose markets because they need crypto that they know that they're going to beable to grow, and they're going to be able to grow the value of it rather than,you know, C et cetera, lead drop in the near future.
Laide: Gotcha. Sojust really quickly thinking through Stella again, just so I understand the usecase and it's clear to me. So if I were as somebody in a country and. LatinAmerica or Africa. Can you just walk me through how, what is my interactionwith Celo? And day-to-day just so I can visualize how it's actually impactinglives.
Mashiat: Yeah, forsure. For Celo, like the front facing application that we use is the Valorawallet. So this is a mobile first wallet. And let's say that, you know, youare, yeah, you're in south America. andyou're going to like a store, right. And you want to buy a Coca-Cola orsomething and the store. Like Celo and it, the store owner also has a Valorawallet.
You can just send, you can just take the store owner's phonenumber, add it as a contact on your Valora wallet and then send them money forthe Coca-Cola. And you can send that in stable coins. So if you're in Brazil,we have. So you can send 'em, you can pay for your Coca-Cola and cereal ifyou're in the us or in any other countries that support USD, you can use, seeUSD.
If you're in Europe, you can use euros CRO. So those are thestable points that we currently support, and you can send those super easilythrough the Valora app. And then the transaction fee is going to be like $0,like it's super cheap and instantaneous. So, yeah.
Laide: Okay. That'sgreat. Thanks for explaining.
So then is the idea that I find the stone? I'm not exactly. Ithen take the stable coins, every sip from the, from my customers, and thenconvert that into my actual Viet currency in my
Mashiat: country. Youcan, you can convert it into Fiat currency. You can stake it in, in, you cankeep it in Valora and it can add you, it can earn interest, you know?
You can do it in multiple ways. the Valora wallet basically also serves kindof like a bank, right? So that's kind of the different use cases that we'reseeing for it. Another cool use cases, of course, just like Venmo, right. ButVenmo for crypto, like you go to a store and pay like one person pays the storein, in Fiat, but you know, you want to send you, they are requesting like tohold crypto so you can just send them, see USD in crypto for your share of likedinner or something like that.
And. That's also a really cool use case or Valora so, those are some of the things that we're seeing.Yeah. Yeah.
Laide: That's neat.And the transaction fees always. Is it a percentage of the, of the transactionthat is occurred or is it always 0.0, zero one? Oh, you mentioned.
Mashiat: Well, ofcourse, like transaction fees, they depend on a lot of things.
Right. so they, I, Ithink like they depend on like the price of the coin. They depend on like thebase sort of way. they depend on. AlsoI'm like the gas limit and stuff like that. But usually, because of like, just the way our protocol isstructured is proof of stake and the way that we have different forms ofincentive mechanisms in place, like the transaction fees are usually likearound a hundredth of a penny.
of course it alsodepends on your transaction. Like if you're doing 10 K it's probably going to be like a dollar orsomething like that. Right. So, I, Ithink it's more like a percentage plus. A bunch of other things, that were at the protocol level.
Laide: Okay. I justwanna make sure it wasn't like his cereal more like whatever I buy and thetransaction fees, like a hundred X, what I'm
Yeah. We won't like, I don't think you'll ever see liketransaction fees over $10, so you should be good.
Laide: Awesome.Thanks for sharing. All right. Switching gears now to boys' club. I know you'reone of the founding members of the community. Uh, can you just say more aboutwhat led you to start that. The emphasis and community within web three.
And just anything you can share for folks who are interested inlearning more about.
Mashiat: Yeah. Soboys club has this amazing community and social club that was started by Dinaand Natasha Dina, Burke and Natasha Hoskins. So they both saw a need for like,you know, really intimate, intentional like community.
and they started thisdinner series in New York last year. andso there was like a bunch of women, women, and non binary folks, just fivingtogether and learning about what three from each other. And I found out aboutboys club actually when like Dina joined Celo and. Did my research and Iabsolutely fell in love with the concept from like my background and sheet 256.
Like I've always been interested in the diversity space, and solving problems in this, in this niche,particularly diversity in crypto. And I was just really looking for like acommunity that prioritized connection and learning without barriers. I alsojust really love good design. And I don't know if anyone has checked out likethe boys club website, but like the curricul the aesthetic, the design is justchef's kiss.
So I, uh, I just knew, I really wanted to spend my time, youknow, building something at boys club. So. I, uh, I joined the core team acouple months ago, and I'm actuallyhelping out with their Dao. So like I'm learning a lot about, you know, justdoubt infrastructure, how to set up treasuries, how to build community with the Dow, how toincentivize the community and, you know, compensate the community and rewardthem for their contribution.
So the response from. Boys club has been amazing. we did our first town hall last January, andso far we have like communities of women and non-binary folks in Miami, NewYork, London, LA San Francisco. And we have over 850 members. just from the last month, last week, we justdid a really cool dinner series, withrabbit hole in New York.
And we had like over 150 people wait-listed and the day beforethere was like a secondary market for tickets. So, yeah, I think the tractionhas been really awesome. And I think part of the reason why there's such anamazing response is because like, I feel like women are just tired of seeinglike white men get rich, you know, and we're just like, it's time for us to getthe bag.
You know, it's time for us to band together, learn, have funand get the bag while we're at it. And I think that's, that's what we're tryingto do. We're trying to build a community. That's fun because crypto learningcrypto is steep and it's hard. And why not make a couple of friends along the wayand you know, like learn at your own pace and, and learn.
Exponentially to our community IRL events as well. so right now we're building out the Dow. we're also, we also have two curriculums upfor anyone who wants to like, you know, kind of get started in crypto. We have,uh, we have them on our website and then we're also just building easy to useguides and also the, the events in multiple cities around the world to makesure that the community always has a place to get together.
Laide: Amen to that.Thanks for sharing. No, I agree with everything you've said. I think one of myobservations, one was as I started this podcast. I keep hearing, you know, webthree in blockchain being touted as this thing, that's going to create equalityfor everyone. And I was like, I don't see any different from what two worldtoday.
So if you asked me might be a little worse.
Mashiat: Oh no. Wow.Oh yeah. I feel like it's definitely gotten worse, right? Cause like back in2017, like everyone was in blockchain because of the philosophy behind. Becauseof libertarianism and, you know, owning your own stuff. And with that camepeople from all walks of life and it was such an accessible space too.
In the past five years, like the influx of traditional financehas changed so many things. If you are staking in defy, you can't see properreturns unless you stake. Like tens of thousands of dollars. NFTs are justinsanely expensive. Joining DAOs like I loved DAOs, you know, I have nothingagainst like friends with benefits, but come on, like putting in like $5,000just to join your doubt.
Not everyone has 5k just lying around, you know, and that's thething, like the more we learn, the more we empower ourselves. And like, Ipersonally think like learning with community, you just end up learningexponentially because you're not just like reading stuff together. You're liketalking about it.
And the more conversations you have about, about crypto, aboutwealth, about building crypto, about learning crypto, it just makes, it justhelps build those mental models and mental maps also about the crypto.
Laide: That's fair.So then just like, what do you think it is to change? Uh, is it morecommunities like boys clubs coming out and speaking up, creating.
Those ecosystems or how do you see things changing? Cause I, II'm waiting. I don't know.
Mashiat: Yeah. So Ithink it's like a very multi multifaceted problem, right? Because there islike, you obviously need communities. You need communities that are centeredaround learning and education and onboarding and helping.
People from all walks of life, get into crypto. You need morecommunities that are intentionally designed around a learning and communitiesthat don't require you to like shell out thousands of dollars just to be injust to be a part of them. I think you also need just like better design forprotocols as well.
Like a lot of these protocols are geared towards people withcapital. But I don't really see that many protocols that are geared towardpeople who want an easier way to get into defy or who want to get an easier wayto get into NFTs. They want to easier way to start up their wallet and to learnhow to invest and learn how to, how to use different strategies.
And I think, uh, that's, that's the big challenge, right? Like,because at the end of the day, It's easier to build something for like fivepeople who have like $5 billion and can contribute $5 billion to your TBL thento like build something for 5 million people. But the reality is, but the thingis like when you build something for 5 million people, like that's amazingbecause the network effects is like amazing.
Even if those people just contribute like $500. Each. So Ithink like inclusive design and also just like the target market and theprioritization of target market for protocols, it's changed so much in the pastfive years. And I feel like there needs to be almost like a correction of that.If we want to see like defy and crypto be adopted by the masses and want tobring the benefits of that to the map.
Laide: definitelyagree with all that. Thank you so much for sharing. So then do you have anyadvice for anyone looking to get into the
Mashiat: space? Yeah,I think community's like a part of it. Right. But a big part of also justlearning about crypto is by Lee is learning by doing, so that's why I think like the boys clubcurriculums like volume one, it really teaches you how to get started with likeyour wallet start investing in crypto and start using pool together.
Like we also have volume two. Teach you like how to properlyuse defy, how to use rabbit hole, how toget your like ENS domain. and then Ithink like, after you've kind of done those curriculums, like a good way wouldbe to really understand, like, what do you want out of crypto, right? Like,what are your goals?
Like, do you want to, learn how to invest? Do you want to learn howto buy an NFT? Do you want to like, just become a subject matter expert becausethe way crypto is set up right now, it's kind of like this. And there's theseinterconnected galaxies and ecosystems like Celo, like Ethereum like Solanaright, like near, and then within these ecosystems, there's like different usecases like defy, NFTs, DAOs, and so like picking one ecosystem and then pickinga niche within that ecosystem or use case within that ecosystem, try out theproducts within that niche, understand how they work, understand how they'reconnected.
And then, you know, kind of move on either to another niche orto another ecosystem. And, you know, maybe you learned about NFTs and Solana,and now you can learn about NFTs on Celo and then see how they interact witheach other and see how they connect. andthat way you can start like, kind of building out that mental model, the mentalmap of how crypto is laid out, andbecome more.
And you can like, you know, become more confident in thedecisions that you make. but yeah, Idefinitely think. Learning by doing and getting started with the boys clubcurriculum can be really helpful. I'm also happy to like, send some resourcesalong your way if people want, like, you know, Twitter accounts to follow for aparticular niches and use cases as well.
I think. Those arethings that definitely helped me, thesepast six months. Yeah.
Laide: Oh, that'samazing. Yes. If it's not too much trouble, I'd love that. And I'd link thoseto the show notes. Great. Uh, what's next for you at Zillow? It's not a sellerrather. And what's next for you? A voice swab, anything you want to share thatwe can look forward to?
Mashiat: I think, yeah, at Celo, so yeah, as Imentioned, I'm working on, the NFT initiativeand so, uh, part of the things that I'm doing is, uh, I'm kind of, you know,helping out like NFT builders on Celo, launched their products. if anyone wants to like start building on Celo,you know, send me an email, I'm always happy to have a chat and learn aboutyour project.
and we can also findways to get you funding and grants as well. I'm also looking at really cool use cases oflike PO apps on seller. which is likethe proof of attendance protocols. So you get like a badge, for different experiences that you attend. Andthen, you can do cool things with that,with that NFT badge.
and I'm also looking atbuilding out, a mobile first NFTmarketplace, in the next few months, uh,in April 4th and fifth were having a really cool conference called fellowconnect. And, there I'm going to becurating, uh, really nature inspired, Immersive experience and exhibition. So if anyof you are in Barcelona and April 4th and fifth, please stop by and, you know, have fun at theconference and check out the experience.
there's going to bereally cool, like a really cool polo app, you know, experience there as well. so yeah, just planning out a lot of coolpilots and exp IRL experiences for people too, so that they can interact withNFTs on Celo and then with boys' club right now, we're in the weeds of buildingout the Dao.
So a lot of the stuff that I'm doing is like, kind of focusingon like incentive mechanisms for members. how do we do like proper contribution schemesand compensation schemes, and, how do welike. Allocate our treasury and manage our treasury. And what's kind of thebest ways in which we can bring forth change with our community in mind.
Laide: Fantastic. I'mso jealous. You got to go to Barcelona. I was hoping your conference would bein the metaverse. So I get to sneak in.
Mashiat: That'sright. What we need to get. I mean like, yeah, the metaverse just completelyintrigued me. and. It's so cool. And atthe same time, it's so overwhelming.
but like, I just lovethe idea of like a cell overs maybe.
Laide: I like that.That sounds that's awesome. I guess Celoverse coming soon. Stay tuned. yeah. Anything else you want to share with the
Mashiat: audience?Keep being curious and. I start learning by doing it can feel like a reallyoverwhelming space, but, you know, if you just like, kind of focus in on oneparticular niche, follow a couple of awesome people within that niche, join acommunity within that niche, you can learn exponentially faster and, you know,become a subject matter expert and be confident to move on into the next partof crypto.
And yeah. If any of you guys are in Barcelona in April, send mean email. I'm happy to like. You know, some learning spaces as well, and just meet new people. So yeah, I thinkthat'd be really fun.
Laide: That'samazing. Awesome. No, thank you so much for sharing rash. It's been greattalking to you. Thank you for all your insights.
Mashiat: Well, Ithink thank you for inviting me. I really, really appreciated chatting withyou. Thank you. Thank you
Laide: so much forlistening. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe wherever you listen topodcasts. I'm your host Laide until next time.