Episode Notes

In this episode, we discuss what NFTs are, the value the provide for creators and artists. Breanna also shares her insights and view on virtual real estate, metaverse, the intersection of digital and physical experiences and so much more.

Topics & Timeline 

  • 2:00 - Breanna's background & foray into blockchain
  • 3:00 - NFTs & what's behind the hype
  • 11:00 - What NFTs unlock for creators & artists
  • 25:00 - The importance of Virtual Real Estate
  • 36:00 - What the Metaverse is
  • 38:00 - Web3 & the Digital/Physical hybrid
  • 41:00 - Areas for improvement
  • 44:00 - About Metarkitex
  • 48:00 - Key Takeaways
  • 50:00 - Recommended Resources

Links from this Episode

Breanna's Recommended Resources

Follw on Social Media

Episode Transcript

disclaimer: may contain unintentionally confusing, inaccurate, comical transcription errors amongst others)

Laide: Hi, Brianna.Thanks for joining Onchain Medley. How are you doing today?

Breanna: I'm doing great.Thanks for having me

Laide: excited to have you on the show. I'm looking forward to all the things you're going toshare with us today.

Breanna: Also go ahead and start us out.

Laide: All right. Let's do it before we actually dive deep into the topic of today.

I want to learn more about your background and what sparked your interest in blockchain. Just so our audience has an idea of.

Breanna: Uh, my name is Brianna Fe. I've been working in tech basically the last 10 years. Uh, I originally am trained as an architect. And so, um, my foray into technology has always been geared towards, you know, bridging digital and physical environments and how technology affects the built environment.

And my entry into blockchain started just sort of as a cryptogeek. Uh, I first heard. Uh, Bitcoin in 2012 ish and was like, oh, digital currency. Yeah. That makes sense. Like, everything's going to be digital.Right. Uh, and so, but I got way more involved, I'd say in 2016, 17, and more from an investment point of view and then started into kind of like developing and designing blockchain related products and platforms.

So yeah. And 2017 was pretty, you know, all this. From a professional point of view, investment point of view. Um, and then of course,like once everything collapsed in 2018, it was like, okay, the world's not quite ready, but now I feel like, and I think a lot of people would agree that things really have taken hold and technologies and kind of ideals of blockchain tech have really started to be adopted and, and accepted.

So. Incredible. Fantastic. Thanks

Laide: for sharingt hat. It's really great to hear that so we can have how the technology has evolved in the last two years. I think probably the word of the year or thephrase of the year is nonrefundable token or NFTs. It's having his breakout year and his breakout moment. And so just won't understand.

How do you think about it and Ft? What is an NFT? Why is it all the rage these days what's going

Breanna: on there?Well, I think, but there's definitely been a huge hype around NFTs that, uh, I think started. And maybe Echo's crypto cryptocurrency a little bit, but I think it's even more so. And I think the reason is because people can have an emotional attachment in a way that, you know, unless you've got your kind of money on the line, crypto isn't emotional, right.

Money. Isn't inherently emotional, unless you're kind of in this volatile, like the highs and lows of the roller coaster, but we don't kind of connect with it in the same way. It's like, it's a means to an end. And so I think NFTs. Have this really powerful, emotional connection to people. So apartfrom having value, which of course you, you innately have that.

So in the same way that you're tied to finances at the highs and lows, you'll also be tied to that in an NFT, but you have this sort of emotional tie to things because of their visual company. So, um, you have this identity potentially, or this, you know, just the idea, a notion of collecting something.

That's something everyone can relate to. Not everyone's aninvestor. Um, very few people are right. When you think of like the general population. But everyone has collected something. Right. Um, from the time that we were little, like, I remember collecting rocks, collecting Pago, Pokemon cards. I mean, I've been collecting things since I was, you know, four or five years old and I'm sure most people kind of have that similar story.

So it's, it's relatable to basically everyone, even people that don't understand it, technology wise. So I think that's part of the driving force of. Y NFTs more so than just crypto. And I think that we're just starting to scratch the surface of what a digital collectible can be. I think it starts with art, right?

We've had this huge art boom. We've seen the art world kind of get like. You know, jumbled up a little bit from, you know, what is digital art and it has presence now. It never, it never had a presence before. And then we've also seen it with kind of collectible quote, unquote art, whether or notyou want to call NFT collections like generative avatars art as well, but then there's going to be a whole other assortment of other type of digital collectibles that NFTs will basically represent whether we call them NFTs in the future.

Laide: Yeah, that's fair. I want to go back to one of the things you mentioned about the fact that,you know, it's a collectible one, you have an emotional attachment to it, butI'm just wondering, like, given that it's digital, it sounds like you were saying that the emotional attachment you feel with the physical collection, and he's also like, sort of similar to what you feel with the digital collection.

And one of the things I always wonder is like, what. I listen to my collectibles at home. I can show my friends if they come over and visit,I could, I don't know, take a picture of it and post it online. But I'm wondering about the digital part of it and how it lives in your wallet, which is sort of how it's stored right now.

May not always be the case. Do you equate both the value you get from a physical collectible with the same as you get from a digital collector?

Breanna: So I think it's going to be different for everyone. Um, me being, you know, very much inthe tech world and in emerging tech and exposed to that kind of stuff, I, I putthem on the same level.

Right. But I do think that for the general population, we have different ways to showcase. So you mentioned when I have something physical, Ican take it and, you know, show people on or they come into my home and they see it. Right. So we just have less physical presentations in terms of. Homes and our stores that are inherently digital, but we notice from a street point of view, if you walk around New York city, that's actually radically changed inthe last five, 10 years.

Right now, all the billboards are turning digital, right? Even,even driving through the Midwest, you'll start to see digital billboards versus just. Paper and glue. So we're going to continue to see that evolution play out, especially in the next decade and things that you used to just assume werephysical, you know, Posters are going to continue to transform to beinteractive and dynamic and digital facades.

And then, so when you think of it from that point of view right now, yes, I think there is a skew more towards having more opportunities to present things that are physical, but that's going to change rapidly over the next decade, I think. And also. There's limitations to when you have things that you physically collect too, you have to imagine, like, my mom collects strawberry pottery.

It's very random. Right. And it's not that she cares. She can't carry that pottery around anywhere. Right. It's just to display in the home when there's guests over, which is so rare. Right. So actually collectibles, I don't think it's only about showing them off. I think it's, you know, youc onnect with. Fruit or that character or, you know, whatever that thing is, youlike it, and it's like an expression of identity, whether or not your main reason is to show it off.

I think the actually like collections and collectibles, I think showing them off as a component, you know, people are kind of proud show their identities and, and show like this sort of representation of how they've managed to aggregate things that are representative of their identities. But Idon't think it's the actual.

Driving factor. And so that's what actually is really powerful with NFTs, as opposed to crypto, for example. Right. Because I can say that Ilike have a thousand of Syria, but I can't show you. Right. I mean, like, and it's weird to like open up an app and be like, look at how much crypto I have.Right. I mean, some people might do that, but it's not really seen as very polite or nice, I guess, but from an NFT point of view, I can show you a visualimage.

I can show you this kind of collection of art and cartoons andt okens. That might mean things. They also have value, but that's not me showing you my antique collection. Isn't because I'm saying, Hey, look, this antique sworth $20,000. It's to look at the physical thing, but you kind of also knowwhen it has value and when it ha when it doesn't.

So that's somewhat like what NFTs are. And, but it's just in the digital sense, again, as opposed to a room full of antique collectibles inthe physical sense.

Laide: That makessense. So then stand on the ARD topic. I know that's one of the major use cases of NFTs, and I know that it has value and I hear what you're saying, but one ofthe things, I was one of just like who assigns the value, you know, I understand with some avatars like board ape, the values based.

The rarity or the fun-ness of certain attributes for someone like an art. I don't know, a generative artists, something else who assigns avalue what's valuable and what's not.

Breanna: So it's ,it's kind of the same as in thrill world and the physical world, meaning that demand is. Really drives the value. So board apes are just an example of, it'sbasically like a very hyped project.

And because of that, there's a lot of demand for it. And that people are also betting on the success of that as a project in a collection.And that there's continued promise of great utility that you get from being apart of this club that you have access to as well. So that ultimately that demand is driven by people wanting to.

To be a part of that kind of owning that thing or a part of that club in that sense, because I do think that one's very community and club oriented, but then you also have a separate thing. So you were talking about like rarity, that's more about the. Kind of like the internal. So if you have this collection of 10,000 board apes, right.

There's an internal and external, um, intrinsic value. So the external is about the demand. Uh, other people saying, I want that board aprey, and so I'm going to buy it. And then that ultimately like raises the price because if there's continued demand, You know, people will continue topay 30 then 40, then 50, then 60 Ethereum then.

Yeah, I'll continue. The internal value is kind of, what's more driven a lot, a lot of times by rarity and rarities. I don't know if you wantto go into the detail of NFV rarity, but basically like a lot of it's driven by like traits. So like board apes, for example, um, or lots of different avatar.They have different clothes or skin color or eyes, some have sunglasses, for example.

So you have these like different attributes and traits that some might be more popular than others, or just some more rare than others, meaning, oh, there's only like two with sunglasses. That's super rare. So that might also drive the value of that internal avatar compared to another internal avatar. So that's what, what makes one token in an NFT?

Uh, like an NFT in a collection. Popular sometimes than anothe rone.

Laide: Gotcha. Thanks for explaining that. So then switching gears. So I'm like the collector to the creator. One of the things I've heard is NFTs are going to change the waycreators work and, and it's going to open a lot of doors for them. And right now it's still like a collector's item.

You sort of own it and that's about it. Um, and then the creator creates it and they make some money off of it. I mean, what else does this new technology offer people who create, especially when you think about.As an example, what can they do with NFTs and web three in blockchain that I couldn't

Breanna: do before?

There's a few different things. One is that you're going like direct to consumer. And I hate saying consumer when I'm talking about art, butit's just like a common term, right? D to C. So you were going from a time that was middlemen, ran the show. If I, as an artist, wanted to be, uh, hanging myart in a gallery or to sell it at all right.

I kind of have two choices. I can like sit out on this. Of NewYork, for example, and, you know, post my art, which you don't usually get alot of money for if you're selling street art. Uh, but if I want to actually build a rapport as an artist, I'd have to go to a gallery. So a gallery isgives you physical space so that you can exhibit your pieces.

They can also like find buyers for your art and then you hope to get into better galleries over time and increase the sales price. Sobasically NFTs because it's digital space, it's sort of like when websites were brand new, right at the beginning of. Thought, why would anyone need their own website right now?

It's like obvious why you need your own website because it's basically your virtual real estate to put a storefront and sell anything that you want. So NFTs basically just allow a way for artists to do that. Digital storefront of their art and collectors to go straight to them. So you're kind of, you're not cutting out the middlemen entirely, but in a big way, you are, for example, as an artist, it's not very easy to actually convince galleries to represent you.

So, um, with NFT platforms, I mean, there are some where you just literally like. In 30 minutes, you could upload, you know, um, your digital art and post it, and someone could buy it like instantly, basically, but you can also do super unique things that you can control as an artist. So,um, you can bake royalties into the smart contract, which means not just when you sell this, you know, digital art, you're getting like, whatever someone paid you for it, let's say it's like one a year.

Which is around $4,000, you can say, okay, well, after I sell this, every time this painting is sold to someone else for the rest of its existence, I want 10% royalties of that. And that's basically up to the artist and the creator to decide. Do you want royalties? What number do you want that royalties at?

And that as basically instantaneous. So if you set like a royalty amount and it's baked into the smart contract, it's going to happen. So immediately upon like you sold it to someone for one Ethereum, if they turned around and sold it for two or theory, um, you know, the next day or the next year,you're automatically going to get 10% of that.

And like that happens in perpetuity. So like if NFTs exists for the next. Infinite a hundred hundreds of years, your wallet is going to be like this always scraping that, uh, that royalty collection, which previously, you know, was again kind of controlled by gatekeepers and middlemen from music to,I don't even think an art it's normal to get royalties from a visual art point of view.

But yeah, so it's like really creates these new opportunities for artists to really control. And step back and say, what should art be and how should art be sold and transacted? And what's the importance of theProvidence of art?

Laide: No, that makes sense. It sounds like before a lot of the artists just focused on like the art and somebody else kind of control the economics of it all.

And so now they sort of partake in and Stuart in what the economics of their art should be. So I guess they have more, more stage. Howthings are transacted, as you mentioned, it sounds like that sort of what you're saying.

Breanna: Yes. A ton you have basically all the control now with that control does come time andresponsibility.

So that's one thing. That's the first thing I always say,because I get hit up by people all the time that they're like, Hey, I'm anartist and I want to sell NFTs. How do I do it? And I think a lot of people,which is great by the way, like, it's great to have that enthusiasm, but I thinka lot of people just assume, oh, if I make an NFT, it's going to sell becausethey like hear all these articles about people selling, you know, a $69million, um, art piece, which is amazing.

And yes, there have been huge explosions of astronomical prices, but that's also like people have been creating an NFTs like every single dayfor years before anyone even cared. So I think. Is it important for creativesand artists to realize is that because you are eliminating with NFTs, themiddlemen, you have to actually act as that middleman service.

Sometimes you are kind of your own PR you kind of are your ownmarketing. Of course, there are some people that just catch a lucky break andget bought up by like, um, w we call whale collectors, which is like basicallycrypto whales. A large amount of crypto and people follow their wallets. Causeit's all kind of like transparent on the blockchain.

Who's buying what, from what wallet. So yeah, there's like lotsof ways to catch a break, of course. But I think for, for 95% of people that are entering this space, you really have to. Take on that role of like, okay,I, I want to make my art like this. I want to make it, I want to bake inroyalties. I want to make it such that I launched 10 at my first drop andthey're going to be cheap.

But then like the next 10 are like double the price. And then the next 10, I I've dropped. We're going to be double that price. And so you can kind of like game-ify, but you also have to be kind of the, the marketing and, and, you know, like, who's, who's going to talk about your. Just becauseyou created an, a team, no one doesn't mean, you know, the world's going to pay attention to it.

So you have to be part of the driving force of telling people about your work and what you do. And I think that's also a very different flip of a switch because I think artists, a lot of times are kind of more introverted. Uh, not always, but like they rely on the galleries to like selltheir art. So what happens when there is no gap?

Laide: Yeah, itsounds like the way I ended up being like a middleman, like a NFTE agent or something.

Breanna: Yeah. There, there, you know, agencies that are kind of serving as these things. Now I think predominantly they're geared towards like more middle already known artists whoare already have some sort of fan base, but yeah, there, there definitely are.And for example, celebrities. That are trying to capitalize on, you know, theNFT, boom, they'll go to agencies a lot of times.

Cause it's, it's very rare for like a celebrity or like a very famous artist to just be like, yeah, let me just learn crypto and blockchainfrom scratch. And then like Ben a month doing that. No, they're for the mostpart, they're kind of going through these agencies that are popping up now andsaying, Hey, how do I make an NFL?

How do we structure this? Uh, what do we, what do we call it?Um, what are the costs? And then they kind of take that guidance from peoplewho are. A little more versed in the, in the field.

Laide: Yeah. That's fair. And I'm glad you mentioned some of them about people who are just morewell known. Cause one of my criticisms of this whole NFT space is that yeah,it's great.

And I'm glad that it's unlocking opportunities for artists, butI do think that if you're a new artist, a fledgling artists, your struggles arestill going to be the same because the demand is in their notorieties in there.So you still have a tough hill to climb and I'm always like, well, who'slooking out for those guys.

I don't know. So to me, I don't think it's. Everything that'sin there that I think still needs a little bit more investigation in myopinion.

Breanna: Yeah. I'm actually a hundred percent with you on that. So I am a creator from multipledifferent perspectives. Maybe we'll talk about a view, but, um, and that was myexperience.

So I've been into blockchain art since like 2017, um, notcreating NFTs per se. They're like it's on chain art though. It's, it's hardto. Explain the difference, but it's basically all within the terminology and the type of platforms you were using. Can

Laide: you trythough, just explain as best as you can. What is on chain art and why is thatdifferent?

From what we know today?

Breanna: So NFTs are like sometimes on chain and sometimes. Not like, meaning the actual art, um, where it's stored. So yeah, exactly. One of the very, very basic version of what onchain means for someone who knows nothing about blockchain, it might be alittle hard, but basically what's on chain means that it's the data of that ispermanently stored on the blockchain.

And that can never be changed. Deleted, altered, nothing. Ihave poetry. Written on chain, which basically means that I have poetry published. I can never take back. Like I can never eat nice. It's a littlelike, uh, scary sometimes when I first started doing that, because it was like,oh, poetry, super raw. And like, it's kind of like publishing a book, right.

Once a book is published, you can't, I mean, you'd have to likego and find all those books and burn them. Right. Not going to be feasible. So yeah, like on chain is you can never change it. A lot of NFTs, like, especiallyvisuals, they're not actually art themselves. There's not on chain because it'sbasically you pay for the data that's on chain.

And so images are a lot more data. Text is a lot less data.It's short text is a lot less data. So yeah, I won't go too far into that. Sothere's on chain art there in 2017, there was this like kind of growing and popular, um, popularity platform called Steemit. Um, there were several in thatkind of ecosystem.

I had an account. Oh really? Okay. Yeah. I loved the early days. Those were super fun before it kind of tanked, but. I was like in thiscircle of artists who, um, writers, musicians, visual artists who were justlike posting their artwork on this like blog like platform. So you know what itis, but, um, yeah. And then, so obviously, like you can't change those posts, Ithink like after a week, Solidified on the blockchain.

And yeah, we were just, we were doing like open mic nights every week, where there was like, kind of competitions and, and you'd link videos,visual arts, poetry, also different types of writing, um, and literary artists.So, yeah, that was all happening at the same time. Like when NFT. Just startingto be developed.

And they're kind of like the same thing. When you talk about output, it's just displayed different visually and it's, you know, it's not called an NFT cause it's, it's not, uh, it wasn't geared towards like a token.It was more of like a blog on blockchain. Type

Laide: outcome you were saying earlier that yeah.

That's one of the issues you had too, is people who are not very well known. Don't really see the benefit. Yeah.

Breanna: Yeah. So that's, that's something that like, I've definitely experienced. I know a lot of artists have experienced, like I said, just because you create an NFT doesn't mean there's going to be a buyer for it.

And you really have to, like, because of that kind of go all in. If you're doing it really passively. I think it's, it's even harder. And Ithink that's probably the similar for artists in general, in the physical worldas well. But yeah, it's hard to get out there, which could be disconcerningbecause, you know, there are people who've been building them space for, youknow, a year or six months, and maybe haven't seen remotely a small fraction ofthe success as an Instagram.

Who literally just heard of NFTs this year, who created one yesterday and, you know, sold out for like 10 Ethereum. We see a lot of that,which is why it's so important for people in the space to support actual, like we call them sometimes veterans or just people who have been like putting inthe work who are in the NFTE community specifically, because there are people who create NFTs, who are in the NFTE community.

If that makes sense. No, that makes

Laide: total sense.Okay. That's fair. Um, so yeah, we talk a lot about art, another area of anempty distance. Like not the main spaces are like, you know, art, other digital collectibles there's gaming, which makes a bit of sense when you think aboutit. But then there's like virtual real estate and I know decentralized, lots ofland has been sold for millions of dollars, but what's the fascination withvirtual real estate.

And, and what's the value you think it's going to serve in this space as things.

Breanna: Virtual realestate is, is really interesting. It's a super fun one. While our NFTs also still have a long way to evolve. I think they're understood a lot more virtualreal estate is sort of like one of those other types of domains or genres thatstill has.

Figuring out to do so, like we're still, I don't know. I like,I discover a unique new utility for some of these things. Like, I mean,yesterday I was on a, on a Twitter space with Zeneca who's, uh, Zeneca 33 bigshout out to him. He's a, is a very well known person in the NFT space. And,um, we were talking about virtual real estate.

So basically think of the Sims or SIM city. Right. We allplayed these games when we were kids and. We bought the game, but then, youknow, within the game we play it. So we're, we have an avatar, right. We walkaround, we like build a house, we put stuff in the house. These are all thingsthat are actually very familiar.

But then when people say like, oh, owning virtual real estate,that's weird. Well, didn't. Technically by this, like when you were 10 and youreally wanted it. So of course from like a gaming perspective, it kind of makessense. You have an avatar, which can be, you're also NFT, right? People are alot of times buying avatar NFTs.

There's like an over saturation of NFT avatar projects, butjust think that's your identity, right? That's going to be your future videogame character or metaverse character. And yeah. So that's one. So gaming hasalso in the past sense, we used to buy the game and play it. And you can't evertake the things that you built in that game to other places.

Right. And actually like the Sims would create like the nextversion of the Sims. And you, you couldn't like take your house that you builtin Sims one and import it into Sims two. Right. It was like, you had to startover every time. So with really like the future iteration of the metaverse. Canbe a combination of kind of social media gaming, whatever you want to call it.

These virtual environments, the true. Flip the switch where itactually becomes into like a metaverse environment is going to be trueinteroperability. And what that means is if I created something in the Sims, Ishould be able to take it out and put it into the Sims two or the Sims three,but I should also be.

Take it out and put it into roadblocks or the new version ofFacebook. So if I build a character that I'm connected to at a home that I'mconnected to in one environment, I should own those things. I created them. Sothe way we've previously done things as these created these siloed environmentsfor you, you buy the game, but you don't own anything in it.

Right. It's just the. The past time, there are some games whereyou actually like do buy assets. I think world of Warcraft or some of theseother, I'm not a huge gamer, but I know there are some of these other gamingecosystems where you can buy assets in the game. But when you are able to takethose assets out, because you actually own them, that's going to be really whatkind of leads into the next version of what the internet is going to be,because I didn't just buy a simple.

Game. I'm probably actually playing the game for free, but I'mbuying the assets. And if I like want to take that character or that house ordigital art that was hanging there and put it somewhere else, put it on myapple watch. Right. Display it on my TV at home. Um, put it on a billboard intimes square.

If I own that thing, I should be able to do that. Yeah. And Ithink those are just a few. You know, like a few tiny use cases of why you mightwant to have any of those things or be able to do it from a kid perspective,you you'll play games and you'll be able to own and collect things. But alsothose things will have value.

Like there are kids that are making like tens and hundreds ofthousands of dollars right now just from playing games online. Uh, that arebased in crypto. So it's really game-changing right. We've never no one. Ithink I'm, I'm again, I'm not a gamer, but never in history. Besides I do know,like in world of Warcraft, if you built up like a character to be a high skilllevel, By that character from you.

Cause they don't want to earn it themselves, but this is like atotally different thing. You win assets, you win crypto based on either yourengagement or, you know, your, your skill level or your ability to like beatcertain things in certain games. So it's pretty perfect.

Laide: Wow. Yeah,that's true. I definitely see the value.

And I think of gaming. You also hear things about workingvirtually and you can incorporate like the metaverse, which I'd love to talk toyou about later. But like, if I were in a gamer. Maybe didn't go to anymeetings. Do I care about virtual real estate? So

Breanna: from avirtual real estate perspective, I think it is very kind of it's very gamecentric right now because the people who understand the metaverse most, I thinkare gamers.

Because they've been living in these 3d environments or beenexposed to them rather, but in the future. So it's really hard to imagine whyit will be important now, because think about our internet right now, ourentire world around us, like I'm looking around, I have this room, I'm sittingon a chair in the bedroom.

There's a living room. Like there's physical space. There's agarage, there's cars, everything's physical around me. But when I go to mycomputer, which is where we spent. Most of our time. Um, most people havecomputer-based jobs. It's kind of like a newspaper. It's like webpages, they'recalled pages. They're very much like I'm reading a newspaper and I'm turning apage.

Everything predominantly is 2d and it's not going to be likethat forever. And so the question of like, why would the normal person careabout, you know, virtual assets that have three-dimensional. Capabilities Ithink is the reason why we don't understand why that is. So probably going tobe important to people in the futures because our internet is still verytwo-dimensional or the rest of the world is 3d.

Just think about like, if we were to try and live our physicallives in 2d, it's just doesn't work. Right. So. Our computers, our internet,um, even our screens may go away entirely, but yeah, basically they're going tobecome much more. Three-dimensional. That means space, right. And that meansphysical space.

So if you're walking around in three-dimensional space, um,either from a screen or from a VR headset or with the next iteration of Googleglass in five years, whatever it does come out and is good, basically like, youknow, some sort of augmented reality headset, you're going to be walking aroundin a 3d virtual environment and that real estate of what you see is going tobe.

Very important in a way that, you know, we're asking now, like,why would people want virtual real estate? It, the S S the same question ashowever many years, it was ago 15, maybe 20, which is why in the world wouldanyone want a website? Why would you want your own website? Which now it makessense. Why do we want a website again?

We'll go back to the very beginning. It's because it gives yourealistic. To do whatever you want online, whether it's published a blog, whenpeople go to that blog, you can make money from it. Whether it's go shopping.Right. When I shop on Amazon, I literally am saving myself the time of goingout into the physical world, driving.

Uh, to Walmart and picking up things off the shelf, you know,it's like I'm saving that whole hour long process by just clicking andordering. And it's being delivered to me. That's going to be the same kind oftransgression. Once our internet becomes a little bit more one ingrained withour physical world, as well as three-dimensional itself and it's, and it'sgoing to be doing both of those things.

I just don't know which one's going to hit first. AR or VR orboth.

Laide: Yeah, no,that's fair. And that's fair as you were talking. And I was, I was thinkingabout to the seams example. It's making more sense. Now I can see myself goingon this sort of computer, if that's even a thing in the future. And a virtualreal estate sort of looks like maybe a physical world where it's like, I wantto go shopping then maybe on that screen, I can go to a shop and then.

If I want to go to my bank and I only go on Tuesdays, maybe onTuesdays, but bag pops up and I walk in there and do some transactions. Soinstead of me opening like a bunch of apps go into a bunch of website, pages isprobably more dynamic. It sounds like that's sort of, I should think about it.And I'm sure I'm understanding what that vision is because I can't even imagineit.

But is that the fair?

Breanna: Exactly.Like you might be, you know, you might be shopping in AR or VR in the future.Um, an AR super exciting too, because. That's a layer where in augmentedreality, you could be walking down the street and like the physical street andyou're passing stores, and then say you're wearing some sort of glasses orwhatever it is, where there's basically alerts going that are like, oh, by theway, don't forget that you wanted milk and it's in a store right next to you.

Or, or that coat that you've been looking for. That's on yourwishlist. It's, it's literally in that store. That's another. Layer. So it'slike, yeah, you could actually have like this whole decentral land typemetaverse world where you're like walking around in this 3d, totally designedarbitrarily environment, but you can also be in AR.

And how does that total virtual right arbitrary world actuallyintersect with. The real world, that's going to be the super interesting thingthat like, people can have ideas and opinions on, but like, we really don'tknow how that's going to evolve because right now what we have are these reallysiloed environments that are kind of like games.

They're like games, but they're also social. So on the gamingside, you have fighting games where you can like play with other people who arereally live and playing with you. And then, then like metaverse worlds likedecentral, and it's not really a game. But it feels like a game, but it's moreof a social instead of spending two hours scrolling on Facebook on a very likenewspaper experience.

I'm gonna walk my character, my avatar through this oh city,basically in 3d on my computer or in VR. And I'm going to like walk into astore or meet someone at a bar it's social experience. But then you can alsohave the game component and you can combine both, which is most likely what arekind of, you know, evolution of the metaverse will, will form into him.

Sure. It will be like, you can jump from world to world, poolyour assets from whatever, you know, if you want your avatar to be in this gamenow, or that game, that interoperability will probably eventually be there. Andthen the interesting thing will be how you go from that virtual environment tolike an AR.

Kind of environment.

Laide: So that makesa lot of sense. So yeah. You talked about the metaverse, we've sort of talkedabout what it is, but I know there's a lot of definitions of the metaverse. Idon't think there's one unified definition yet. So I just want to understand,like in maybe a few sentences, how do you think about the metaverse and how doyou define it?

Breanna: That's atough one. Um, everyone kind of has a different, like you said, there's justlike a lot of different opinions. In my opinion, they're sort of like thefoundations of the metaverse right now exist, but it's. Yeah, we're not nearlythere yet. The big component I think, is interoperability. And basically whatthat means, if it hasn't kind of come across already is I can, I can own thingsand because I own them, I can take them and jump from here to there.

You know, world won the world too. And that thing that I'mowning can have value. I can buy it, I can sell it. I can trade it. Maybe iteven, you know, earns me royalties or like I can stay get, which means I mightjust earn money just for holding it. So there's a monetary ecosystem that supportsthis, this social environment that I really think does have to connect both ourvirtual and our physical.

Uh, world, I don't think the metaverse necessarily has to havethe metal, like the physical, like connection tie, but I, I personally thinkit's, it's so important so that we don't continue to exasperate the issue ofour online and our offline identities. So. Ready player one scenario, right?They were almost like so far down the line that no one even lived IRL anymore.

They were like, it's just better. Like virtual world is justbetter. I mean, it's quite possible that that's what happens, but I think it'llend up being more of a hybrid and what will be really. The solutions that getbuilt for those kind of hybrid?

Laide: No. Yeah. Idefinitely hope there is a combination of physical.

One of the guests I had on the show earlier mentioned that hewas afraid of the metaverse cause he thought people would like go there andjust hide from their real lives and he didn't want to live in the metaverse.And so I'm kind of, of that same school of thought as, as crappy as this worldis sometimes I really still don't want to be living a completely digital world,but.

That's just me. Anyway, switching gears now a little bit to thephysical and digital, a quote that I read from you goes like this. Web two was99%. Software-driven web three is going to be a fusion of digital and physical.Why? Because smart contracts and empty utility open AI, mind control, voicecontrol, replacement screens, wearables, IOT, everything in our homes, officebuildings.

And that I mentioned the metaverse. Uh, this is only thebeginning. If you don't have a grasp on the digital physical hybrid tech,you're going to be left out blockbuster. Now is the time to make. I'd love tolearn more about like what that quote means. We talk later about it, but just,you know, can you explain a little bit more and why,

Breanna: like I said,sometimes I say like so many things that I'm like, how did I manage to pack allthat that was out one tweet.

Like that's kind of, I have to pat myself on the back for that.

Laide: Pretty good. Iwas like, that's pretty impressive. I'm going to ask her more about this quoteand yeah.

Breanna: And part ofthat is like me and my beliefs and what I think a good future internet will be.Right. So that's what I was talking about with like, I don't want us to go inthis ready player one direction, right?

The technology. Yes. Love it. We're definitely going to bethere, but like, We don't want to lose the kind of respect that we have forthis physical place in that setting. And that movie context, it was like thereal world sucks. And so we're going to spend all of our time in this virtualworld. And I think like there's such an infatuation with technology right now.

Like people have understood that technology is embedded intoeverything like every business. Needs to have a technology arm or department,because if it's not your, you will eventually become obsolete or you're likerelying on other proprietary software, which could. You know, slowly but surelykilling your business or like other software or tech things are going to takeover your business.

It might take 20 years, but yeah, most things will get phasedout. Web three is super exciting, super driven by AI and blockchain technology.Um, IOT has been a driving factor. I think that really bridges digital,physical, um, which I don't know necessarily is included in the web threecomponent, but in my mind, AI and blockchain, aren't inherently physical,right?

There's nothing physical about them. So if the two main driversof web. Are being defined by technology such as blockchain and AI. There's notenough talk about digital physical. And I think people do understand,especially with NFTs specifically, why physical is still so important, notbecause the NFT, the is digital, but people need hardware to display their NFTsand our computers, our laptops, our hardware.

Right. So. There's there's this really interesting thing.Hardware's not innately web three, but actually we're going to really rely asthings get more digital and technology and fuse and advanced. AI intoeverything in blockchain powered ecosystems, we have to think about thehardware component. We have to think about the physical world.

And a lot of the value of NFTs have like physical ties. So forexample, the board apes, for example, the point back to them, they hosted ayacht party, this like insane, fantastic yacht party in New York city, whereanyone who held a board ape was invited. And that's an IRL utility, right? GaryV created a restaurant in New York.

I don't think it's open yet, but it's going to be an NFT basedrestaurant, meaning it's probably going to be like a super, you know, five-starrestaurant that you can only go to if you have the NFT associated with it. GaryV also launched a book that I, I personally bought like a few hundred of thebooks because he said, Hey, every time you buy 12 of these, you're gonna get.

He didn't say it, but he basically alluded to, it was going tobe an NFT. Those are all three very physical related things. So that'ssomething that's special about NFTs that they're really, a lot of projects areplaying on IRL and URL that even though the technology is not innately IRL, theapplications, the utility is, uh, and I think that once our hardware catches upto our software, We're going to start to really understand and hopefully havean enhanced connection of that digital and physical those ties.

Right. Right now it's super segregated. It's like I'm spendingeight hours a day on my computer and then I shut it off, but I'm also stillattached to my phone. So yeah, the more like we have hardware, catch-up thebetter it'll be. I think for our combination of. Experience, which will bedigital physical.

Laide: Now that makesa lot of sense and things explaining that as it sounds like, you know, hardwareis an area that needs to catch up for this technology to evolve and foreveryone to have full utility out of it. What else in your opinion needs tochange about this whole NFT? What three metaverse blockchain fiasco?


Breanna: well, Imean, a lot of it is just adoption and comfortability. I think. There's still alot of hesitation in like, yes, we have seen mass adoption for the first time,but it's still like, I think there's 300,000 NFT, you know, like usersworldwide. Maybe we were at 400,000 now. I mean, I don't know. That's likenothing.

So in the same way that, you know, Cryptocurrency finally, as Iforget how many millions of collectors there are crypto, like we're going to bethat way with NFTs. And actually I think that digital asset owners willprobably eventually far outweigh crypto owners. Well, actually, where we'reheading probably in that direction with Coinbase, um, launching NFTs.

Cause you're gonna be able to buy with a credit card, right.You won't even need. To like own these crypto assets. Really? Yeah. I have a


Laide: of questionsabout that, but we don't have it on time. Uh, let's talk a little about thework you're doing now in the company. Um, I struggled with how to pronounce it.

Is it med chart?

Breanna: Kittensarchitects.

Laide: Okay. MyTargetX oh, I got it. Like occupied.

Breanna: So webasically combine Metta and architects, but just like spelled with a K and anX. Um, so some people pronounce it like Metta architects, but yeah, we justkind of combine it. Um, so med architects is a collective where we basicallyfocus on.

Building IRL URL, um, related experiences and basically thatintersection of digital physical, and we've started with, um, a computationalmodel. It's basically like an algorithm that designs buildings itself. So youdon't need an architect, um, to design any number of like buildings that arebeing outputted by this algorithm.

It's just all generative. So I won't go too far into detail oflike how we did it, but, you know, we basically built this algorithm that canlike build buildings itself. Instantly. And the great thing is, is like notonly can it build buildings, it can build any number of them. Um, uniquely,meaning you want a thousand different ones that like have different geometriesand shapes.

And, you know, you want some that are a thousand square foot.Some that are 2000, you want some that are 20,000. It can basically like designall of those instantly and you can also do neighborhoods. So you can be like,oh, I want a whole, you know, I want to development of 200 buildings and I wantthem all to be 2000 square.

Uh, and to have three bedrooms and it will literally generate,I mean, it can do all of the same ones or can do like thousands of iterationsof that neighborhood development that you want. So it's kind of an interestingtool because it can definitely have kind of utility for both the virtual. Andthe real-world environment.

Um, but right now we're focusing on kind of like buildingmetaverse architecture one, because there are less constraints in the virtualenvironment. So, um, it's a lot easier to get by with like certain mistakes ornuances and the intricacies of the design are different, but yeah, sobasically. Our Genesis NFT collection is going to be it's called the metAmerican dream.

So it's going to be 10,000, um, uniquely generated. Socomputationally generated virtual homes basically. Then you will be able to,like, along with the NFT, you'll get a 3d model, a digital 3d model that if youown a metaverse land, which for those of you that. Aren't familiar, basicallywhen you like buy land in these metaverse worlds, like decentral end, you don'tlike get anything on it, right.

It's literally just a plot of land. So what do you do? You needto build on it? So this gives you a way to like, without having to hire abuilder or learn how to build yourself, if you don't want to do that, um, thisis basically like instant pop-up building for virtual land, where you can useit for pretty much anything.

You can host parties. Like you can literally have like all yourfriends come. To show up at this building. Cause you can give them an address.You could just hang your NFT art in it. Right. And use it as like a gallery.Um, yeah, there's kind of like an array of different things, but that'sbasically, that's basically what we built.

Laide: That's verycool. I can not even totally see this going to a point where people want their,their physical home to match the digital home. And like, that's going to be anightmare for architects, but I'm excited to see what

Breanna: evolvesinto. 'cause like I'm, I'm also delve into real estate a little bit. And itdrives me nuts when like, you don't have any plans accompanying the building,which is just crazy how many buildings are bought and sold today that don'thave floor plans.

Uh, but yeah, like in the same way that I probably feel thatway and I'm sure other people have too, um, I'm an ex architect, so I likedefinitely want floor plans, but the same thing will be like, Uh, why don't Iget a 3d model at this? Right? Like if I'm buying something, I should be ableto own the asset.

And actually there, I think there are people working on thiswhere you can like NFT your home. It's something like that. Uh, but yet in thefuture, you'll definitely see more things like that. Also the deed of the homeitself, what is that? It's going to be a smart contract. I understood this in2017 and that's why I was like smart contracts are like infinitely.

Then crypto to me because it literally will touch everything,you know? And, and crypto is a smart contract, but yeah, it's just like, it'sgoing to be everything. It's going to be your social security card. It's goingto be your driver's license. It's going to be the DD or house. It's going to bethe title of your car.

It's going to be like any contract you sign is going to be asmart contract. So it's just, so it touches everything. And I find that supergood. Yeah, same

Laide: here. Um,before we go, though, do you have any sort of key takeaways for the audience?Is there anything I should have asked you that you,

Breanna: well, I'dsay that like, for those of you that are really just, you know, getting intolearning about NFTs or, you know, maybe even have a small NFT collection.

I think I just would leave everyone with, like, you came herefor a reason because you came with curiosity instead of like, You know, denial.So there's a lot of people out there, like, I'd say 95% are still like indenial, right? That's the right click savers. Right. It's very easy to bucketthem and just say, those are people that it's like, I can just right.

Click save this. If those are the same people who were writingarticles about like the Internet's a fad, like the Internet's like not growing,like it should, like this was 20 years ago. And, and obviously we know thatdidn't happen. Like every new thing is going to have naysayers. So like really.One pat yourself on the back for being here and being open to these types ofnew concepts that are kind of hard to grasp.

And, and then I want to say, cause I think that like evenpeople who are in crypto, like for example, Bitcoin Maxis. Right? They're so indenial of other sometimes types of technologies or blocking applications ormetaverse uses or NFTs, you know, it's like, so just because you think you'vegot it figured out, you're still like sometimes have these folks that are indenial.

What I'd say is like, don't repeat the same mistake you want tobe coming from a place of curiosity, always. So, you know, keep asking thequestions and like, and I'm still learning, right? I mean, I've been likedoing, um, digital, physical things for like a decade now. Uh, if not longer,But I'm still learning.

Like I had this Twitter space yesterday where I was like, wow,that's actually a new application. I hadn't thought of. Right. Like, as youlike, discuss these things and join Twitter spaces and listen to podcasts likethis, you'll start to learn more and you'll start to like, have these ahamoments of wow.

Now it makes sense. Right. And probably in 10 years, you'll,you'll totally forget that. Once upon a time you had to ask yourself why. Realestate was even important. It'll just make sense then. Yeah, no,

Laide: well said thisis super helpful. Uh, any other resources that you'd like to share with? We canlearn more information, any recommended ones?

Breanna: Yeah,definitely. I'm mostly on Twitter when it comes to anything tech, blockchain,crypto, and NFTs. I am super in the DJ NFC space. So, um, underscore BriannaFe. On Twitter. And then definitely if you're interested in anything, metaversefollow Matt architects. It's M E T a R K I T E X. And we're on pretty mucheverything, but again, Twitter is the main kind of channel.

Like if you're, if you're into. Uh, NFTs crypto blockchain web3. Twitter is the place to connect with others and learn more. So if youfollow a log, my account or Matt architects, you'll, you'll definitely get alot of web three virtual real estate metaverse uh, NFTs content. Yeah.

Laide: Everyoneshould just like, look at your account, follow you and then follow everybodyyou're following.

Cause I'm sure you're following a lot of the top people

Breanna: as well,too. I'm super blessed that I'd like very well connected in the NFT space. AndI tag a lot of people too. You'll see a lot of NFTE people do that. They'llkind of do like shout outs to like people who are not just like their friends,but like people to follow in this space for good advice.

And who break things down. Like I mentioned, Zeneca, forexample, he's such a great example because he actually provides so much valueand just does it for free. He like tracked the floor. Of an, like all the notable NFT collections and art blocks for months and months and months. Andliterally like goes day by day and week by week and month by month to tracktheir, you know, floor places, average price, and like all these things thathelp people.

Cause there are. There aren't very many resources. If you're in the NFT space, people like that who are so invaluable to the space, to those,both who are there every day and, you know, ones that are just learning you'llyou'll gain so much, you know, just Intel and understanding by, by followingthe right people.

Laide: Fantastic.Well, this is an amazing, I learned a lot. I thank you, Brianna. I really enjoyed talking to you. Yeah.

Breanna: Thank you. I really appreciate it.